Harvard Culture Lab Changemakers series with Larry Bacow
Speakers sit facing each other, six feet apart, in a Harvard classroom of wooden floors, painted walls, and a crimson rug.
Sherri Charleston: Hello, I’m Sherri Charleston, and this is the Culture Lab. The Culture Lab is a space where community of innovators can think through the challenges of creating culture change for inclusion and belonging. On each episode of this series, we’ll have an opportunity to engage with this community and think about how we advance diversity, inclusion, and belonging in complex organizations and institutions. We’re going to start with what we know best, Harvard University.
Harvard is a university that its known for its competitiveness and also its excellence. We’re going to dig into the paradox of how this institution on its pathway towards continued excellence thinks about remaining an elite institution while not being elitist. There is no better person to start this inaugural conversation with than Larry Bacow, the 29th president of Harvard University. So Larry, you have been a stalwart champion for diversity and inclusion. In fact, you’ve talked about diversity and inclusion as the pathway to excellence. That’s language that I got from you actually. You committed to defending affirmative action in the affirmative action cases and you are known for really being a courageous leader in higher education around these issues. So, give us a sense of why you’ve been so committed to this.
Larry Bacow: First, thank you very much for the kind words. I always talk about diversity as a pathway to excellence because I’m an economist, and I think about things in terms of talent. And we can never hope to accomplish as much if we sample from only a fraction of the distribution of talent that’s available to us than we can if we sample from all of it.
It’s also the case that once we have the talent in place, it’s important that people have an opportunity to thrive, that they can be their best selves, they can do their best work. And if we expect to get the most out of people, we have to create an environment where that’s possible. And so I think that our commitment to diversity, excellence, inclusion, belonging is really all about supporting excellence. In the end, that’s what Harvard’s all about.
SC: I think that makes complete sense to me. We’ve used that same language, that diversity is really our pathway to excellence in many ways, if we’re going to continue to be an excellent institution. We really have to think about how we want to maximize all the available talent that we have. You once told me that the mark of a good leader is the ability to pick people and problems. This past year, you’ve spoken out forcefully against a variety of problems, anti-Asian violence, anti-Semitism, you’ve spoken out in support of Black lives. You’ve even called out white supremacy using that exact language, in fact. And then you went on to sue the Trump administration and won over anti-immigration policies. Tell us what motivated you to do this.
LB: One of the privileges of being president of Harvard is that you’re afforded a bully pulpit. It’s the kind of thing that, actually, I think you have to use sparingly because if you try and get up and pronounce too frequently on a variety of topics, people tune you out. So I’ve tried to be careful when I use my voice. But on issues that relate to immigration, for example, on issues that relate to how we treat the most vulnerable among us, I think about my own life, my own experience.
Both my parents were immigrants, they were both refugees coming to this country. When I thought about the efforts of the prior administration to enact regulations that would limit immigration to this country only to those who already spoke English, people who already had a demonstrable skill, people who had the resources to be able to demonstrate at the time of immigration, for example, that they would not become a ward of the state,
I thought of my own parents who had none of those. They didn’t speak English, they had no skills, they had no resources. My mother was an orphan coming to this country with one suitcase. If those [regulations] had been in place, I wouldn’t be here today.
What I think my parents were looking for—what I think so many others are looking for when they come to this country—is in the case of my parents, partially it was religious freedom, but it was also economic opportunity, the chance to build a life not for themselves, but a better life for their children. And so I think we’re a nation of immigrants in so many ways, and we have a responsibility to continue to be a place where people can come here in search of a better life, a better opportunity.
So whenever the chance has arisen, I’ve tried to speak out on behalf of those who don’t have a voice. My mother was a survivor of the Holocaust—she actually was a survivor of Auschwitz. I remember she said that after she was liberated—she was liberated by the Russians—she never felt more alone or abandoned by the world than she did. She had lost her mother, her father, her sister, her grandparents. She was the only member of her family who survived, actually the only Jew from her town who survived of the war. She described what it felt like just being forgotten, no one there advocating on behalf of her. Well, in this job, I have the opportunity at times to advocate on behalf of others. And it’s one of the reasons why I took the job, was so that I could try and use my voice judiciously, selectively, but when there’s an opportunity to really make a difference, especially on behalf of people who have no voice themselves.
SC: You have been an alum of the institution, two times over.
LB: Three times.
SC: Three times over. We were having a conversation the other day about one of our central problems here on campus. I was sharing with you the conversation that I had been having with others about the Pulse Survey in our data and the number of people on campus who feel that they don’t have a full sense of belonging. We were discussing the challenge with almost 47% of respondents to that survey saying that they don’t feel a full sense of belonging, which was astounding.
LB: To you, but not to me.
SC: Yes. And then you said, “I’ll tell you, I don’t always feel a sense of belonging.”
LB: I think that everybody who comes to Harvard, whether or not they come as a student, whether or not they come as a faculty member, or whether or not they come as a staff member, is in some way or another intimidated by the institution, intimidated by our 385 year history. And so I think we all worry about whether or not we are worthy of being here. The imposter syndrome exists at many places, but at this place we have a particular virulent form of it. I think it takes a while for everybody to feel like, no, I do belong here. This is my place. For some people that’s easier than for others, but I think it’s a universal feeling. So actually, that number did not surprise me. And there’s also a sense at Harvard, I think far more so than at many institutions, that maybe everybody else has this place figured out except for me.
SC: Right. Everyone else has the secret.
LB: Right. Everybody’s got the secret. People at Harvard are sometimes reluctant to show their vulnerability and to admit, in fact, that they may be struggling a little bit. So I think the combination of all those things means that many people feel like they don’t quite fit in, they don’t quite belong. Which means that for the rest of us we know we’ve got our work cut out for us.
SC: When you talk about having the work cut out for us, give us your thoughts. This is an opportunity for me to see if we can crack the nut. Can we crack the nut together?
LB: Part of it I actually think is naming the problem and getting people to recognize that they’re not alone. Part of it also, I think, involves while acknowledging our storied past and while there’s this certain pride in the fact that this is an extraordinary place, it’s not the only extraordinary place in the United States. We can learn from others. We’re not perfect. People here are regular people and they have the same kinds of concerns that people have at other institutions. And to the extent that we can get people to relax a bit and not feel like they have to live a certain part or play a certain role that is expected of them, that’s different from them, then I think we can do a better job of getting people to feel like they really belong.
SC: On that note, a question that a student asked me once, I’m going to pitch to you.
LB: Sure.
SC: Why do you ask people to call you Larry?
LB: Well, a couple of reasons. When I first had the opportunity to become a university president, when I went to Tufts, I was contemplating doing that. I was very much a reluctant president. I did not see myself as a university president. I thought university presidents were taller, they had more gray hair than I did, they were more formal than I was. I could go on. It was my wife, Adele, who said, “No, just be yourself and you’ll be fine.”
One of the challenges in a job like this is that the title always precedes you, the president of Harvard is coming. And that brings with it certain baggage, expectations. And so part of the reason why I tell people to call me Larry is, first of all, I’m trying to do what Adele said, just to be myself, and I’m Larry—but also it’s to prick that bubble a little bit about the president of Harvard is coming. I mean, I try to separate the title from the person. And in some ways I want people to see the person before and not just the title. So that’s why I ask people to call me Larry.
SC: I think that makes perfect sense. So you’ve been leading this institution at a time of unprecedented crises. You actually talked about four of them: public health crises, moral crises, economic crises, and a crisis of leadership. Give us the lessons that you’ve learned through this very tumultuous time and help us think about how we should be thinking about approaching crises.
LB: Well, first, leadership is a team sport. Nobody does it on their own. So it’s really important to surround yourself with a really, really good team and to lean on them and to listen to them. But also, I think in times of crises, people want to hear from their leaders. They want to know that somebody’s worrying about the problems that they’re worrying about. So, communication is really, really important.
One of the challenges in leading through a crisis is that often people are looking for answers at times in which you as a leader lack all the information needed to reassure them, to give them the kinds of answers that they want. So frequently when people are looking for answers and I don’t have them, I try and turn it around and explain why it is I can’t give them an answer when they want it. I think that most people are reassured by that because at least I hope they understand that I’m being straight with them, and they gain some insight at least into why it is that we all have to live with the uncertainty that we’re dealing with. If we knew the path forward that would take us out of every crisis with certainty, it would no longer be a crisis. And the reason it’s a crisis is precisely because the path forward is shrouded it in uncertainty, and often requires mid-course corrections.
SC: And if I could add a little note here, something that you just said a moment ago, you make your problems other people’s problems. One of the things that I have really enjoyed about working with you is that you have always made my problems your problems as well. So as we’re thinking about some of the challenges and the nuances of thinking about culture change at this big institution you’ve always said, “Listen, your problems are my problems.” Which is something that I’ve adopted from you.
LB: Yeah. Look, our job is to enable the people around us to do their best work–go back to where we started this conversation–and in a university that usually means, from the faculty perspective, their best teaching, their best scholarship; from a student perspective, the opportunity to grow and flourish intellectually, socially, emotionall; from our staff’s perspective, the opportunity to perfect their professional skills, to grow professionally as well. That’s what we do. We’re there to enable others to do their best work. And so, your problems are my problems, but I want mine to be yours too.
SC: They are. Okay. So now I have some rapid-fire questions for you. Just give me quick soundbite answers.
LB: Okay, I’ll try.
SC: These are the curious questions that we have. We want to see what’s at the top of your head. The last book you read?
LB: Well, last book I finished or what I’m reading now. Right now, I’m reading Steve Pinker’s book on Rationality, which is really interesting. I’m also reading Linda Greenhouse’s book, new book on the Supreme Court, which is really interesting. Last book I finished was a guilty pleasure book. It was a book by Dan Shaughnessy, who is a Boston sports reporter on the Bird-era Celtics. I was a big Larry Bird fan.
SC: Yeah, I grew up in Detroit–Pistons fan.
LB: Yeah. That’s tough these days.
SC: Yeah, tough these days. And those were tough rivalry years. Okay. Favorite movie?
LB: Oh, I’ll date myself. One of my favorite movies– I have to go back to my youth– was "The Graduate" with Dustin Hoffman.
SC: What do you do for fun?
LB: I’m a passionate sailor and I’m a runner. Until Adele stopped skiing, I was a skier. I skied for, I think it was, what was it? Sixty-four consecutive years. But I haven’t gotten out on skis in the last two seasons.
SC: I don’t like anything that moves fast.
LB: Well, sailing would be fine for you.
SC: I will kayak because I can control the pace for that exact same reason. Tell us one problem that you really want to solve?
LB: As a university president?
SC: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
LB: I’d like to restore public faith in American higher education. I think we’ve seen people lose faith in our colleges and universities, and I think long-term, that’s a serious problem for all of us in this business.
SC: Last couple of questions. What is something that people would be really surprised to know about you?
LB: That I know how to juggle.
SC: I am surprised to know that.
LB: It’s a great way to entertain little kids at rainy birthday parties.
SC: Okay. I’m going to ask you a question that people ask me all the time. Given all that has happened in the world and that is currently happening in the world, what gives you hope?
LB: Oh, that’s an easy question to ask. Young people give me hope. I mean, one of the privileges of working on a college campus–and I’ve basically spent my entire adult life from the age of 18, I’m 70 now, on a college campus–is the opportunity to just be nourished every day by the energy, the enthusiasm, the aspirations, the impatience of young people. One of the really interesting things about living your life on a college campus is that it’s one of the few places where we get older, but the people around us stay the same age. I think it keeps us young, but it also, it keeps us grounded.
I also think that you cannot lead effectively unless you can persuade people that the future’s going to be better than the past. That’s how you get people to dig down deep and do things. I think if a leader can’t be hopeful, if a leader can’t convey to others that we in fact can build a better future–one that gives people better lives, a more just future, a more prosperous future that our children will have an opportunity to better life than we will–then you really can’t lead. I think we can do that. Fundamentally, I’m an optimist.
SC: Well, thank you, Larry. I joined the organization in the midst of the pandemic. We had a few things going on in August of 2020, and so we really jumped into the work and I very rarely actually get a chance to sit and pick your brain because we’re always thinking about the things that we need to do to really advance the institution. So, it’s a pleasure to actually just be able to talk a little bit about the shared work and about the path forward for the institution.
LB: Well, thank you, Sherri. The pleasure is mine, and it took us a year of working together before we were able to meet each other in-person.
SC: Yes.
Larry Bacow: But I’m glad that we have this opportunity to be able to sit down and talk and to do so in such an engaging way. I look forward to future conversations. Thank you very much.
Sherri Charleston: Absolutely. Thank you for joining us. That was President Larry Bacow, the 29th president of Harvard University, joining us here in the Culture Lab. Please look out for future episodes of the Culture Lab. You can follow us on YouTube and please subscribe to our newsletter.